Is that what happened ? According to whatever it says there's only been about 1000 cases and most recover. You remind me of current conspiracy theorists who now attribute any death via a health condition to the vaccine. Show me evidence they ignored reasonable warnings or didn't move fast enough?

If you're comfortable with that, that is fine, I respect everyone's decisions for their own health. But what about those who do not recover? No one has the right to coerce another person to receive an irreversible medical treatment. Masks can be taken off - nothing against them personally. But can one "un"-vaccinate themselves? And why are people forced to vaccinate when natural immunity has been proven to be at least, if not more effective, than vaccination (from a peer-reviewed study published in the Lancet)?

The argument is not whether the vaccine is good or bad. It's about respecting people's right to a choice. Japan did not mandate the COVID vaccine and actively discouraged such an approach. Would you claim they are anti-science?

It's also important to consider what the former President of Australia's Medical Association has stated regarding the COVID jab: "the true rate of adverse events is far higher than acknowledged due to underreporting and “threats” from medical regulators"

I don't respect people's decisions if it may affect others. The countless money spent caring for people with Covid who might have required less care if they were vaccinated is one. Health care costs are amortized over the population through insurance

> The countless money spent caring for people with Covid who might have required less care if they were vaccinated is one. Health care costs are amortized over the population through insurance

This is a recipe for the worst, most intrusive kind of tyranny in the name of "biosecurity," but that's probably a feature and not a bug to the sort of person who is still advocating for COVID vaccine mandates at this late date.

There are vast demographics of healthy young people at infinitesimal risk from COVID and much higher risk from the shots, for whom taking them actually raised their risk of being hospitalized. But the difference between you and me is, if I found out people required more medical care because of their unwise and ill-considered health choices, the last thing on earth that would occur to me would be to punish them with job losses, higher insurance premiums, and the like.

78% of individuals hospitalized for COVID were obese/overweight. In other words, people who eat too much were primarily responsible for overwhelming our health care system.

What are your thoughts on them?

- Gaining weight takes time and is the result of a continuous large number of bad decisions over a long period of time. Not getting vaccinated is a single decision

- Losing weight requires a great deal of effort over a long period of time. Getting vaccinated is quick and easy

- Weight gain can have factors that are difficult to control like mental illness, self control issues, and other things related to your emotions. I'm sure you'll agree that the vast majority of people who are overweight don't want to be overweight. Those who didn't get vaccinated wanted to not be vaccinated

While you can argue anyone can lose weight, which I would agree with you, the amount of effort is extreme, otherwise I'm sure no one would be overweight. Therefore a person who is overweight has a heart attack deserves sympathy whereas a person who didn't get vaccinated* but ends up in the hospital because of Covid doesn't.

* Assuming they could have gotten vaccinated, meaning no health issues or real risks

> Therefore a person who is overweight has a heart attack deserves sympathy whereas a person who didn't get vaccinated* but ends up in the hospital because of Covid doesn't.

A person who is obese willingly chose to gorge on lots of food. (Of course, there are a minority of individuals who have conditions like thyroid issues). A person who declined vaccination was most likely afraid of the side effects, which are rare but possible.

> Weight gain can have factors that are difficult to control like mental illness, self control issues

Mental illness? So a schizophrenic person magically gets obese? Self-control issues? People who can't put the cookie down? And a young athlete has to undergo a procedure with risk because the obese person can't say no to Taco Bell? These people were responsible for 78% of hospitalizations. Yet the media had basically no campaign to encourage them to lose weight. Note that they have had a significant impact on our health care system before COVID even began.

By your logic:

"I can't stop overeating" => "It's not your fault"

"I'm concerned about myocarditis" => "You're selfish!"

Even though I find their decision to be extremely selfish, I still hold sympathy for them. Only a sadist would find joy in seeing others suffer. Imagine if doctors laughed at their patients for having a preventable illness.

Likewise, I know there are people who refused to get vaccination for poor reasons - reasons that appear to be due to mental illness (e.g. schizophrenics who actually believe there are microchips in the vaccines).

> the amount of effort is extreme

And the amount of effort to become obese is extreme. No one becomes obese after one cookie.

> Those who didn't get vaccinated wanted to not be vaccinated

Did the obese make the responsible decision (to lose weight) to stop overwhelming our healthcare system?

(Quick edit: when I say "I find their decision to be extremely selfish", I'm referring to the obese)

Also, I wanted to thank you for engaging with me in this discussion. While we have different opinions, I enjoy learning about other viewpoints and becoming more informed about them :)

"By your logic:

"I can't stop overeating" => "It's not your fault"

"I'm concerned about myocarditis" => "You're selfish"

I didn't say this and you ignored my entire premise about the difficulty of the situation. Both an obsese person and a unvaccinated person are to blame(unless we want to talk about misinformation). The difference is the mitigating factors .

Getting vaccinated is easy but so is gaining weight. Losing weight is hard.

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"Yet the media had basically no campaign to encourage them to lose weight. "

There are massive campaigns by the government encouraging people to become more fit. Remember the presidents physical fitness challange? ( I'm assuming you are US). Encouraging a health lifestyle through physical activity happens all the time. Also the obesity issue in America is reported on all the time.

Also the "media" isn't an organization it reports the news and they reported that government official wanted people to get vaccinated. I don't understand how you look at them, like some sort of government.

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- fear about side effects

The vast majority of experts said it's safe and the chances of side effects are extremely low. Lower than the probability of getting covid. It doesn't make sense to be afraid of side effects but not the disease.

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"Mental illness? So a schizophrenic person magically gets obese? Self-control issues? People who can't put the cookie down? "

I saw your comment about how you are happy about this engagement which makes me think you are a reasonable person however the comment above is the opposite of that. The mental illnesses I'm thinking of is depression and anxiety disorders. People don't magically become obsese, as you said, and if it was as easy as "put the cookie down" almost no one would be fat. There's also been studies showing that sugar is similar to an addictive substance.

Finally have some empathy for people in a difficult situation that has a difficult solution. Getting vaccinated is easy that is unless you don't want to look stupid after you took a absolute stance.

My original comment was about the cost of all these people going threw the medicial system. I take it your arguement and annoyance with this is that I'm selective right? Something like "what if someone is skiing and breaks a leg. That was an optional activity so shouldn't I be angry?"

Not to argue with myself but skiing is entertainment which has value, people don't intend to break a leg, and i hope often take precautions. If there was a situation that a person put themselves in intentionally increasing the risk of an event that then requires huge amount of medical care I would say the same thing.

> "Getting vaccinated is easy but so is gaining weight. Losing weight is hard."

And accepting the risk of severe heart problems is harder for many people. Especially young athletic individuals who have no prior medical conditions. Similarly, gaining weight also takes substantial time. No one wakes up obese after one fast food meal.

>"There are massive campaigns by the government encouraging people to become more fit."

My point is in regards to media campaigns during COVID for people to become fit. COVID and vaccination have been constantly been reported for the past couple of years. Unvaccinated people have been ridiculed by the media. If they put the same level of pressure on the obese during this pandemic, then perhaps they may have been more incentivized to lose weight.

> "The vast majority of experts said it's safe and the chances of side effects are extremely low."

The majority of experts said AstraZeneca was perfectly fine... until its authorization for young people got revoked in several nations. J&J was considered to be safe by experts... until millions of doses were tossed out after it was discovered that the manufacturing facility was contaminated. Then it was revoked for young people, since:

"In December, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended prioritizing the Moderna and Pfizer shots over J&J’s because of its safety issues. Previously U.S. officials had treated all three vaccines similarly because they’d each been shown to offer strong protection.

But follow-up studies have consistently shown lower effectiveness for J&J’s vaccine. And while the blood clots seen with J&J’s shot are rare, officials say they’re still occurring."

And this is the issue. The "experts" did not catch this before - The follow-up studies did. Also note that there has been substantial pressure on doctors during the pandemic (several told me that their license could potentially be revoked if they say anything that contradicts the medical board). Check out what Dr. Kerryn Phelps (former Australian Medical Association president) said.

> "if it was as easy as "put the cookie down" almost no one would be fat"

But it is as easy as that. All it takes is a few seconds of mental reasoning - is obesity worth the sugar rush? If the media reported on obesity in the same light as it covered COVID, then perhaps people would take it more seriously. (Are there campaigns for obesity? Sure. But none are as serious and "spooky" as those they did to make people scared of COVID and encourage them to get vaccinated)

> "Finally have some empathy for people in a difficult situation that has a difficult solution."

If not overeating is considered "difficult", then I'm not surprised why this nation is failing.

> 'Something like "what if someone is skiing and breaks a leg. That was an optional activity so shouldn't I be angry?" Not to argue with myself but skiing is entertainment which has value'

And many young, fit individuals declined the COVID vaccine because of the value this refusal has - no side effects from the vaccine. You may argue that COVID has more serious side effects. However, the first variants were not as transmissive as Omicron, and provided that you took social distancing + masking (with a respirator) very seriously, then your chances of getting it would be much less. In other words, the cons of vaccination must also be compared with the probability of actually getting COVID (based on the variant) in addition to the probability of a serious side effect occurring.

Again, the risk varies for everybody. If an over 50 year old obese person with prior medical conditions denied the vaccine, then you could definitely argue that their decision may not be the best. But for young healthy adults?

I strongly believe that everyone should do whatever they can to keep themselves and others safe. However, when it gets to accepting a rare but serious risk, that is where individuals must have a choice. I don't find anything wrong with restricting public venues to the vaccinated only (watching football is not a fundamental human right). But mandating it for employees and disallowing testing? That is concerning.