I consider the cost acceptable given they don't just "slap Ubuntu on it". The hardware is curated towards 100% Linux compatibility, and their custom OS (admittedly an Ubuntu variant) is tweaked to suit the hardware. It's a good marriage and to some it's worth the extra cost.

Look at it like you would a Macbook; Apple charges a premium but the benefit the buyer receives from that extra cost is hardware and software that feels cohesive and works perfectly together. I'm not saying System76 has reached that same mark just yet, but it's what they are working towards and they have made great progress in that endeavor.

With all of that said, there's something to buying a used or marked-down Thinkpad and installing your distro of choice; you'll (usually) get a great device with excellent Linux community support, and in my opinion the industrial design of the Thinkpad series is more appealing than System76 machines. Personally I don't care for Lenovo because of their past malware shenanigans, but they do make solid hardware.

Have you purchased a Lenovo lately? I've not had good luck with them. Despite 2 returns for service my Thinkpad T500 remained with a loose charging connector. My next Lenovo (notably not a Thinkpad) was a Y50 Ideapad. Audio to the speakers failed, the housing developed cracks at the hinge. The Ethernet connector broke (though used very little.) and now the SD card slot has failed.

I'm giving Dell a try. You can buy them with Ubuntu factory installed or buy with Windows and 'slap the distro of your choice' on it. I have an XPS-13 9370 and after nearly a year, the WiFi finally seems to be working reliably (using Debian Testing.)

Anything here will be Anecdata at best, but I've bought 3 refurb t420 and t420s; these are 8 years old now and still daily drivers for all my family members. The t420s in particular is my all-time favourite laptop of last 20 years, as it's thin and portable, but still modular (t420 is significantly thicker and more old-school portable), easy to upgrade and maintain, and with great keyboard with standard layout.

I have also used regularly a t450 and t470 for work, and last year bought an anniversary t25 as a Xmas gift for myself :).

Prior to that, I've used T530, T410, T60p, T41, T30, etc.

My boss has been put on notice that a Thinkpad is a "condition of employment" for me - I cannot imagine using anything else.

All of them have been absolutely positively rock solid. No issues as daily drivers for a travelling consultant - lots of plugging and unplugging, moving, backpacks, etc.

Mostly various Windows versions, but T450 and T470 are RHEL full time, and I have a T61 with Lubuntu as well.

That being said, for any brand, there'll be people with good and bad luck/experience. You have to look at your preferences, and stats...

Same here. Although for work I prefer a workstation with enough cores for compilation.

Just bought an X230, put OpenBSD in it and it is just perfect in the summer house. Put a SIM card in it and connect to the internet from everywhere. Superb keyboard, fast, small, durable, everything replaceable.

I also have a T25 at home for development and can't say anything bad from that either, albeit a bit too big for carrying around.

X220 and X230 always seemed like smaller than modern T25/T480, but far thicker, almost as thick as the T220 of that generation. Can you comment on that? I'm extremely interested but not willing to trade width for thickness :|

(my ideal complement to current stable would be a 10" or 11" think 8GB linux-compatible... and while dreaming, with a trackpoint. The whole netbook market seems to have bloomed than disappeared - but if ever there was a place to use the little red nubbin instead of tiny trackpad, that was it I think:)

They are thick and sturdy. That's what I like about them. Thick, but with a 35W CPU that can do miracles. Utilitarian piece of hardware so far away of thin modern laptops, I just like them a lot.

Thx! I agree with utility part,I just found t420s so much more usable than t420, while retaining modularity and maintainability. Feels easier to lug around than x220/230,if it's less heavy etc. Hmmm...!

I have the 9cell battery even with the X230 and always carrying it by grabbing from the battery.

I really feel it's much nicer to travel with this than my slimmer T25, but of course it's subjective.

I also have an x230 with OpenBSD, can you share which tutorial did you use to get the SIM wlan working?

I have one of the supported cards[0], so it's quite straightforward:

Check the APN from your operator's settings.

- Try the card first in a phone. Preferably turn on the SIM lock and change the PIN code.

- Insert the card to the laptop, boot.

- `doas ifconfig umb0 apn your.apn.com`

- `doas ifconfig umb0 pin XXXX`

- `doas ifconfig umb0 up`

- Confirm the gateway from `ifconfig umb0` when it appears, should say inet and it's the second IP.

- When gateway is visible, `doas route add -ifp umb0 default XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX`

- Confirm the DNS works, but you should now be able to access internet.

Sometimes when you turn off the power or suspend, you might need to enter the PIN to the card, turn the device up and set the route again. A player automates this with a script. :)

You can store the settings to `/etc/hostname.umb0`.

[0] Lenovo H5321 gw

P.S. Oh, and I found my information from `man ifconfig` and #openbsd IRC channel.

I have purchased two Lenovo T580 laptops within the last year, and both worked flawlessly with Fedora with zero tweaking. Both machines are running great so far. An older Lenovo I've had for a few years did have a hard drive die, but Lenovos are so easy to service that it was cake to replace the drive. If anyone from Lenovo is reading this, thank you for making it so easy to service the laptop for a user.

I have had a few Dells and I think hardware-wise it is the best, but that dual video card setup never worked quite right. Also until Fedora 29 came out (with a newer kernel) the only distro that I could install was the stock Ubuntu that came with the laptop (which didn't have full disk encryption, unfortunately).

I would recommend a Lenovo T580 or Dell XPS 15/5520. I think the Dell hardware is actually nicer than Apple, which is a high compliment.

> WiFi finally seems to be working reliably

I got the XPS15 and installed Ubuntu 18.04 (best choice of laptop I could find that had an i9 8950hk, although only Windows is officially supported).

I had heard it was best to replace the Killer WiFi with an Intel mini card. However the Killer WiFi has been rock solid for me with Ubuntu (I have read that Windows has more problems with Killer WiFi than Linux!).

Regular Linux BIOS updates from Dell from within Ubuntu 18.04 - I'm a happy customer.

Edit: comment from elsewhere in this thread: "only three years ago I had to replace the default wireless card in my Dell XPS 13 because the broadcom one was flaky as hell in Linux"

Yes, I think they fixed the Killer problems on Ubuntu first and pushed their changes upstream. That may be why it works on Debian (It's only been a week.) I can dual boot Ubuntu but for reasons not immediately obvious to me DNS queries were frequently timing out, making web browsing pretty slow.

I think that Debian is getting the firmware updates too, though for the last one it didn't apply so I just booted Ubuntu and it worked w/out issue. (It uses EFI which is another benefit of that.)

Yep, replaced both the NVMe and the Broadcom wifi in my 9350. I'm not buying this year's model as the Killer wifi is soldered down. Killer indeed.

For what its worth, I've had zero issues with WiFi on my 9380. The "killer" wifi is just an ath10k:

  02:00.0 Network controller: Qualcomm Atheros QCA6174 802.11ac Wireless Network Adapter (rev 32)
  Subsystem: Bigfoot Networks, Inc. Killer 1435 Wireless-AC
  Kernel driver in use: ath10k_pci

As far as I can tell, its no different from any other Qualcomm Atheros WiFi. I believe the "killer" differences are just in the Windows drivers.

That's interesting - the only other issue is that I then can't upgrade to Wifi 6 or whatever, but that's probably not an issue until a few years down the track when all my other devices support the same standard.

If anyone else has a problem with a loose charging connector on T500... It looks like the T500 DC-in jack isn't mounted on a PCB, but is on a cable with a connector, and the jack is held in place wrt the chassis partly with a screw. So it might've just been the whole jack part wiggling within the chassis, and just needed a little tightening. Or just needed an $8 eBay part swapped in without soldering. Those old ThinkPad models had "Hardware Maintenance Manuals" ("HMM") PDFs that IBM/Lenovo freely shared, with step-by-step instructions for disassembly and reassembly. (Though I understand sending a new unit back, and also not wanting to possibly void warranty.)

I have purchased 4 lenovo laptops from different generations from x220 to t440p and they have always been rock solid build wise over several years of use. I replaced recently my cpu fan on the x220 but it was the oldest model from the bunch and now it works perfect again.

> Have you purchased a Lenovo lately? I've not had good luck with them.

Same. My Thinkpad 25 has already been back twice. And both their field service and their factory service have really gone downhill.

As much as I love the keyboard, this may be my last Thinkpad.

But where can you go from there? Who makes a better PC laptop?

Kind of funny, but you might consider getting a refurbished ThinkPad from a couple of years ago. If you're ready to replace some parts, a T440p will be fast and good for years to come.

I got my X230 and it's so fast I really question the need for the new CPU generations...

From what I can tell, Thinkpads are in a slow decline. So it's not so much that I expect to buy a better one, but that they'll be about the same as everything else. If they aren't already.

In terms of hardware support, the ArchLinux people seem to be doing more than anyone to document and tweak whatever laptop I look up.

Kudos to them for doing so.

I’m a big fan of the ElementaryOS approach to user interface consistency. I hope they start being an option at build from System76.

Well Cassidy, one of the ElementaryOS founders worked on Pop!_OS too and I haven't tried it, but I'd hope that it therefore has some of his UX pizzaz!

https://cassidyjames.com/resume/

Having used ElementaryOS for two years I had thought that if my next laptop was a System76 I'd give Pop a go.

I do hope they become the Mac of Linux.

I haven't used Arch in quite a while but their wiki is great and generally isn't specific to Arch.

Slapping ubuntu on an OEM laptop gets you absolutely no support from the vendor. If you're OK with that, more power to you if you want to go that route.

System76 does much more than just pre-install the OS. The below comment is from a system76 developer:

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/04/system76-launch-pop-os-1...

"System76 laptops aren't rebranded. Clevo is a manufacturer of standardized chassis models for OEMs who lack the sales figures to warrant high volume orders. The individual OEMs get to benefit from lower prices because every OEM is pitching in together to allow Clevo to design and commit high volume orders of chassis on their behalf.

Using a Clevo chassis does not make your laptop a rebrand, in much the same way that a Gigabyte motherboard or Vivo desktop case does not automatically make your custom-built PC a rebranded Gigabyte/Vivo desktop. They manufacture the chassis (incl. battery and motherboard), and then distribute these to OEMs, who then select the components to assemble the chassis with. This also has the benefit of giving the customer a highly serviceable laptop.

This really isn't all that different from what Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc., are all doing. Many of them are even getting their laptops manufactured in the nearby vicinity of Clevo in a similar fashion. They're just a step closer to the designing stage of their chassis models, because they are able to purchase high volume orders by themselves. They still often outsource firmware development to third parties, rather than writing their own firmware for the hardware they sell.

In comparison to other Clevo-based sellers, System76 also goes the extra mile to select Linux-compatible components during assembly, writes patches to fix drivers in Linux for the hardware selected, flashes custom firmware on them, and are now even driving the process of writing open source firmware for them. You're not going to find Clevo writing open source firmware."

Yes. System76 is definitely expensive, but their customer service is the best I've seen for any product period. They have a super snappy site with real people you can talk to in Denver and ask off the wall questions about the hardware and OS. To some, having that kind of support is worth a markup rather than trolling through Ubuntu forums and asking StackExchange answers. My last few Linux machines were all repurposed Windows computers though. It's also nice to help support Linux on desktop this way.

I have an Oryx Pro and I'm really happy with it.

The build quality is not MBP standards, but support has been great (replaced a keyboard no questions asked when a key failed, helped me debug some updates that I screwed up) and the price premium is higher than total DIY, but certainly nothing in the range of say, Apple hardware.

PopOS is pretty nifty and I like it more than stock Ubuntu. I also like the amount of work they are doing to advance the Linux ecosystem hardware wise, software wise, and evangelism wise.

I could quibble about some of the laptop tradeoffs (heavy AF and pretty awful battery life and fan noise) but I knew those going in, and decided they were worth it for a dev machine that mostly lives plugged in on my desk.

I purchased one about 2 years ago. I am generally happy with purchase, but certainly don't feel like I saved any money. I did need to reinstall the operating system (and have since switched to Manjaro). The fan is loud and battery is lousy, but the hardware has not deteriorated other than the connection to the monitor needed tightening. They also don't void the warranty if you open up the machine and tinker, which was a bonus because I wanted to install my own second SSD. I also really like the look and the keyboard is excellent. Plus a good number of ports including usb-c and Ethernet which wasn't as common two years ago.

You say you installed Manjaro, that probably explains your battery woes. Pop!_OS does alot good battery optimisation, I generally wouldn't recommend getting a System76 laptop if you don't like it out of the box.

Thanks for the suggestion. PopOS was not yet created when I purchased mine, it came with Ubuntu 16.04LTS. I used Ubuntu up until a couple months ago and decided to make the switch instead of upgrading to 18.04. Honestly I think my battery life has improved slightly but I haven't performed any benchmarking and my evaluation may be biased.

Yes, I just bought a Darter, (their new laptop model), after considering others, including Dell. I am very happy with the purchase. A decent case, fantastic keyboard, and PopOS on this machine is beautiful and trouble-free. Also, System76 provides excellent service and support.

I bought my 3rd system76 laptop/desktop a few weeks ago. Every time I shop around, I try to find something comparable, esp in terms of flexibility (their build-your-own feature is excellent)...but I can't.

I bought an Oryx Pro 4, it's a great machine and I love being able to poke their Telegram group chat if something's up.

>Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

So far, yes. Once they start shipping coreboot, the balance changes. They provide something that no other OEM (other than chromebooks and purism atm) do.

I have used System76 systems and I have to say I didn't enjoy the experience. Dell has Project Sputnik although when I tried it out, the OEM Ubuntu OS (a fork of Ubuntu) didn't factory reset correctly wiping out the ability to recognize the GPU.

There's LAC Portland and they were super friendly, I might try to buy a computer from them if my computer dies (and ask for debian or something).

How recently did you buy the System76? It seems like most of the negative experiences were a few years ago; perhaps they have improved over time?

Also, thanks for the heads up about LAC Portland.

My machine was early 2018, the Oryx Pro. It's the thick version. Suspend either suspends properly or NO-OPs. I stuck my laptop into my bag with some dry gym clothes and my books. Realized 30 minutes later the damn thing was running at full power and my bag was too hot to touch. Five more minutes and Caltrain would have been on fire.

They have the newer thinner versions of that laptop (we use them at work), but they have no enterprise-grade support and they all have different quirks (I mean at least have the same quirk, right...?!). If you're trying to replace a keyboard during business hours, and you're a high-level engineer charging hundreds of dollars per hour, and it takes a long time to change the keyboard and learn one skill one time, it will cost the business a pretty penny.

I'd get the Dell Precision 5530 or XPS 13 w/ Project Sputnik for a business setting. It's Dell, and it's the highest-level laptop they sell, so at least they'll take the machine back if it doesn't work (I believe the XPS/Precision line follow a special QA process from other commodity stuff), and I don't think Project Sputnik will disappear anytime soon (actually expanding IIRC).

When I bought one they were just straight Sagers, not even rebranded. No customization that I could see. At the time some important features were not supported including Linux' own suspend-to-disk.

Keyboard was so terrible and wifi dropped out in so annoying ways that I end up smashing mine (I reused the CPU and other components in a barebones later). This was 2013, though.

I bought one last fall, a laptop with a 1070 GPU - I love it.

It is large and heavy so I still use my MacBook when traveling.

I worked for a startup that bought machines from System76. 2 out of 3 were defective and it was next to impossible to get technical support, though this was 7 years ago.

My laptop had a bad video chip.

My manager's desktop had either a bad SSD or a bad SATA bus.

I won't buy from them.

I'd buy one but the design is too ugly :(

I found the cost similar to Lenovo, almost cheaper.